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About this episode
In this episode of all about business, James is joined by Donna Murrell, Managing Director of Reed in Partnership. Donna began her career at Reed as an entry-level employment advisor and worked her way up to the very top. In this conversation, she shares little known strategies for boosting your career, explains why diversity in leadership is so important and gives actionable advice for building your confidence no matter where you are in your career.
00:58 introducing Donna Murrell
07:47 expanding Reed in Partnership
09:54 leadership and team building
13:08 Donna's management philosophy
20:44 going from operations director to managing director
25:16 Advice for aspiring leaders
29:51 spotting and nurturing talent
31:25 creating opportunities for employee engagement
37:01 embracing curiosity and learning
39:30 women in leadership: challenges and progress
49:34 preparing for career progression
52:05 building confidence and overcoming anxiety
54:49 Reed interview round
Follow Donna on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/donna-murrell-reedinpartnership/
Follow James Reed on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/chairmanjames/
Learn more about Reed in Partnership: https://reedinpartnership.co.uk/
About the speaker
Donna is the Managing Director of Reed in Partnership, a branch of Reed which delivers public services such as employment support, wellbeing advice and DVSA testing. Donna has been at Reed for over 20 years, starting as an employment advisor.
[00:00:30:10] James: Climbing to the top of the corporate ladder can be challenging, especially from the viewpoint of an entry level position. With stiff competition and limited opportunities for promotion. You'll need a sure-fire plan to get ahead. So how can you prove to your managers that you have what it takes to lead your organization to greatness? And is it even possible to land a senior role without changing companies multiple times?
Joining me today on All About Business is Don Amaral. Donna is the managing director of Reed in partnership, which helps transform people and their communities through employment, well-being and social impact services. Donna began her career Reed in partnership over 20 years ago as an entry level employment advisor and worked her way to the top. Through hard work, dedication to social impact and impeccable leadership.
Donna, thank you so much for joining me today in All About Business. Thank you. You'll see it on the sofa that I should declare to all the listeners that I know you well, because we have worked together for many, many years. But I thought that you would have a lot of insight to share that people would find really helpful, which is why I've invited you to come and talk to me.
So, Donna, you joined Reed in partnership company. I founded, I guess, back in 1998, not long after it was started in an entry level job as an employment advisor, which is a role that involves helping people who've been unemployed for long periods of time get back into work. So for people listening, that's the sort of shop floor equivalent, really.
If you were working in a factory or a shop or, you joined as an employment advisor, you are now the managing director of Reed in partnership some two decades later. And I am very happy to share a very good and dynamic and successful managing director. And I've invited you to come and talk to me because I love this story.
Your journey, which I find very inspiring, that someone who started on the shop floor and ends up running the company, and I'd like that to be a journey that many other people make. So our reason for talking today is for you to share your experience and wisdom around those. So tell me first, how did it begin? What drew you to Reading Partnership and why have you progressed and stayed for as long as you have?
[00:03:02:03] Donna: Well, thank you for inviting me and for your kind words, James. That's very nice of you to say. I joined the company in 2003. And it's actually quite interesting how that came about, because I was working in Southend in Essex at the time, and I knew I wanted a new job, and I knew two things about that.
I wanted to work in London, and I knew that I wanted to do a job that I thought was meaningful. I wanted to do something where I could help people. I felt that I would be motivated by that, more so than than what I'd been doing up until that point. So I remember sitting at my desk at my current job out of hours, of course.
That I'd go online and look for a job. And I thought, where do you go if you want to look for a job? And I thought, read, that's where I'm going to go. And so it's quite interesting to me to think that, it was literally the first place that I thought to look on Ricoh UK. So I looked at a number of different vacancies, uploaded my CV, and then someone from read contacted me and talked to me about reading partnership, which I'd not heard of.
So I was aware of the rebrand but not, reading partnership. And they spoke to me about an opportunity in East London, in Stratford, doing the role that you just described as an employment advisor, and I was really excited about it. I remember thinking, this is exactly what I'm looking for. I wanted to, support people that own that particular program and had been unemployed for two plus years.
You know, helping them to address any barriers or practical issues that were preventing them from getting back to work. And so I went through quite a big, assessment process, actually, at the time, I remember finding that quite challenging. But I was very, very pleased to be offered the job. And I did that for two and a half years.
And I would say it's probably the job of all of the jobs I've had and read the one that, I used to talk about the most to people outside of work, about how challenging it was, but how ultimately how rewarding it was. And I learned an enormous amount doing that, you know.
[00:04:59:02] James: So I remember that office that you started working in, it no longer exists. It was a sort of shed near the railway station in Stratford. And this is obviously before the London Olympics, before Stratford got that huge investment to improve the area. It was a very deprived area and, I mean, you haven't really gone into detail, but this was a tough job.
I mean, you were you were seeing people. You would have had a caseload of people who were very disadvantaged and, and in some cases facing real challenges and difficulties. Why did you like this so much?
[00:05:31:00] Donna: I'm interested in people, and the stories that they have to tell them, the situations that they find themselves in. And I, I like to have the opportunity to help in some way. I'm not sure how as somebody in their early 20s, I, you know, have absolutely qualified.
Though, so it's a big focus. But.
I really wanted to and I thought that I was quite resourceful and, I wanted to apply that to, to helping these people. And I learned an enormous amount from them. I mean, I remember some of the people I was working with and some of the dreadful situations that they found themselves in. You know, you think about people who have been out of work for a long time, but I think I've heard you say before, there's every person who's unemployed, is unemployed for different reason.
And, you know, I remember a lady who'd come to this country from China, and she'd lost everything in a fire. And she was personally injured by that and come through that by the time she came to me. But it was quite clear that she was suffering from PTSD. I remember somebody else who I was working with to help find work, and he'd, been agoraphobic and hadn't left his house for many years and was now at the point where he was starting to, take small steps, really, to sort of integrate back into wider society.
And he was coming to me every two weeks to talk about getting a job. But it's quite clear to me that he was such a long way away from being able to go to work. So I learned that every person that's in front of you is at a different point in their journey, and the best way to help them is to help them take that next step.
And ultimately, you will get a certain number of people to help them into jobs and staying there. But you can help every single person that is in front of you in some way. And sometimes it's just about listening to them and, being there and, and I think people really appreciate being heard. You know, I really believe that being listened to is incredibly powerful.
And if you can do that in a as an advisor, then I think it builds the right relationships to to help people move forward.
[00:07:34:00] James: We're delighted that you're watching this episode. Please hit the subscribe button if you'd like to receive more insights and actionable advice that will help your business and or career.
People listening won't necessarily know all about reading partnerships the extent that I do and you do, but can you give us a sense of that? I mean, what is it that reading partnerships currently doing and what what's the scale of it?
Just so people know the kind of organization you're running.
[00:08:00:01] Donna: So we're delivering public services in five markets now. We started in employability as we've talked about helping unemployed people find work. Employability is a bit broader than that now. But it's it's still up.
[00:08:12:13] James: So how many unemployed people have you helped find work for?
[00:08:15:19] Donna: 300,000, I think where it is since that, since the organization started in 1998. So that's an enormous number. So employability is still our largest division, but we have sought to grow and diversify and, and sort of, increase our impact, really. So we now operate Reed wellbeing. So preventative health services such as, weight management, diabetes prevention, smoking cessation.
We've got a Reed citizen services division where we've got services helping people, leaving the armed forces, for example, a range of different services, including youth programs in there. Reed assessment is our invigilator training division. So, if anyone has attempted to do their driving theory test, the chances are they would have done that in one of our two senses.
So we've got two centers across two thirds of the UK, and we've done more than six and half million of those tests, which is incredible. And then our most recent division is Rate environment. So, this is around skills training for people in green skills to help the UK achieve its net zero ambitions. So that's our most recent venture.
So we're helping literally millions of people a year every year across all of our services now.
[00:09:33:12] James: I mean, that's a huge amount for you to get your head around as managing director. So how do you do that?
[00:09:39:07] Donna: Not, sure.
[00:09:43:09] James: Come on, Donna. You obviously work really hard. But we're adding things. So we're now doing green engineers and retrofit specialists and I mean, you must be good at delegating.
[00:09:54:09] Donna: Yeah. So having a really two things. One, I've grown with the company as all of that growth is taking place. Now, that really helps because you're not stepping into this very sort of complex environment. And I'm always really impressed by people who do join the organization and sort of grapple with that, that level of complexity. See, but yeah, this is about having a really, really talented team of people around you.
So, the board, the senior leadership team, which is a team of sort of 60 odd people, and they, we simply wouldn't achieve the results that we do without that talented team. They are. Yeah. That, I'm very proud of them. Very impressed by them, I have to say.
[00:10:32:24] James: So you put a lot of time and focus into selecting your team? Yes. Thinking. And you look for what you call an inclusive team. What? Could you just summarize that just for the benefit of people listening.
[00:10:47:14] Donna: That inclusive and specifically.
[00:10:49:21] James: Well, just you said earlier that you wanted diversity of all sorts. I mean, how does that work now as managing director, what you do when you bring in people from outside the organization as well as inside promoting, so how do you make sure you have that diversity? And we have a range of abilities in the team.
[00:11:07:24] Donna: We have to measure it.
[00:11:08:20] James: First of all, how do you make sure that you're not the only woman on the board?
[00:11:13:09] Donna: Yeah, absolutely. So we measure this at every level within the organization. So we look at sort of, women in leadership, women in management positions. And we do the same across all the areas of focus from a diversity perspective. So, we, measure ethnicity, for example.
[00:11:32:05] James: So it's important to see how the organization is shaped overall and how people are progressing up through it. Yeah, because that will give you the diversity that you need at the top.
[00:11:41:10] Donna: Yes. And we need to make sure that everybody at every level has that opportunity to progress and really focus on that, make sure that we've got the right mix at every layer, if you like, in the hierarchy.
[00:11:54:04] James: Because I'm sure people want to work in an organization that has lots of opportunities for women. And that's what you've you've shown yourself. You've been with us 20 years because you've been able to do all these different things, probably.
[00:12:05:03] Donna: Well, it was I think that's exactly what people want, isn't it? You know, I'm working with other people in the senior leadership team that started in this organization is, you know, on the shop floor. And what I really want is, you know, what's happened to me to happen to them. I want to see plenty of other people doing exactly that journey.
I think promoting from within, as you talked about earlier, is really very powerful, I think. And, you know, in the way that I just described about me, you get people who look and understand the organization in such a sort of profound way from doing that. So it is important not to just exclusively do that, though. I mean, it might be that if you're diversifying into a different market, you might need somebody who's got experiences and you don't have, and it's if you're trying to do something that you've never done before, as we've discovered, it's pretty handy to have someone around that can help you learn some of the lessons more quickly.
[00:13:01:16] James: Yeah.
[00:13:02:20] Donna: But generally speaking, we we, we want to create opportunities for people in the company would say.
[00:13:08:21] James: Is there anything else you'd like to add in terms of your own experience that would be helpful to others?
[00:13:15:06] Donna: Yeah, there is actually one thing, and that is I think it's very basically I would like to say to people, don't hold yourself back. Because we talked a lot about sort of the external environment barriers that might be in people's way, but actually, I think for most people, the biggest, kind of blocker for their success is that they might not feel ready or able to take on any responsibility.
And that feeling, I think, you know, people talk about it as being imposter syndrome or whatever, but that feeling can be quite powerful for people. And all I would say is, you know, you might think, oh, is this really me of them? I'm really right for this. But I think it's it's really important to back yourself and and give it a go.
And that would be my message to people. Don't let fear of of failure or worrying that you're not 100% the right fit for something, stop you from giving it a try. Because I believe in, you. Know, that voice inside of you that might say to you that you can't do something. You can silence it pretty quickly. I think if you just get stuck in so that's will be my message to people.
[00:14:21:22] James: There's a wonderful quote I read somewhere. The more the the more you listen, the more the universe reveals itself.
[00:14:26:19] Donna: Yeah, that is good.
[00:14:27:15] James: And I think listening is, I would agree, very important in all sorts of ways. But you were obviously good at this job.
[00:14:35:01] Donna: I mean, first.
[00:14:37:23] James: So. Yeah. What what did it take to be successful from, you know, an advisor's perspective? Listening? Clearly. But how did you obviously got lots of people into work?
[00:14:47:08] Donna: Yes. I mean, we we work in a targeted environment. You know, we deliver services that are measured. We have to measure how effective they are. And so that was measured in terms of the number of people that each individual supports into work. And that's that's right. That services, the quality of services are measured in that way. I was working with people that had done this job for quite a long time, and so I made it my business to learn from them and understand some of their techniques.
Particularly when it came to, you know, working with employers, helping employers to understand the benefits of, of helping people into jobs who'd not been working for for a period of time, for example, I think, for me, the central point as an advisor, though, is building trust with the person that you are working with and helping them to understand that you've got shared goals.
And once I learned that, I learned some of the sort of practical techniques of the people around me. Sorry about that. Some of the practical techniques of the people around me, I think, when you pull those things together, then all of a sudden it sort of clicks your own method of doing that job, sort of clicks.
[00:15:57:00] James: I mean, there'll be employers listening that you made an interesting point about why they should consider taking on people who've been out of work for periods of time. What would be your message to them?
[00:16:08:12] Donna: People who've been unemployed for a period of time are often unemployed for a long time, because it's so difficult to convince an employer to take them on. It's no reflection at all on their skills or ability or mindset, and it's sort of a bit self-fulfilling. The longer it goes on, the harder it is for them. And I think the experience of being unemployed, like somebody, it should make somebody from the point of view of an employer eminently more employable, because they will be absolutely determined to do their best and retain that job with you.
You know, it's it's the right person to give an opportunity to.
[00:16:43:03] James: Because that job is so much more valuable to them that they really appreciate it. They want to hold on to it, and they're likely to.
[00:16:49:03] Donna: Experience the difficulty of being out.
[00:16:51:08] James: That's very interesting. So I think a lot of people don't see that. But you saw that and you, you place your trust in the people you were working with. You were able to help them progress.
[00:17:01:10] Donna: Not everyone, but the idea is to help somebody get closer to a goal, always to be moving forward.
[00:17:08:06]: James: So how did you progress from here? So what happened next?
[00:17:12:01] Donna: So I, decided that after two and a half years in that job that I would like to think about managing a team of people doing that job. So, you know, full disclosure, I wasn't as an adviser thinking, you know, I want to be the MD one day. That was never in my mind at all. I was only ever really thinking about what my next challenge next day.
[00:17:32:21] James: Exactly. So. So you thought management would be a good thing? Yeah.
[00:17:36:06] Donna: So I thought, let me get into a management job and see if I can help other people. Again, it's that kind of helping people saying if I can help my team, to be successful. And so I moved into what was called a business manager role of managing a branch of people.
[00:17:51:18] James: How many people would that be?
[00:17:52:24] Donna: It ranges. Good. I'd say several different business manager roles, but my teams varied from six, 7 to 13.
[00:18:00:10] James: So a bit like a sergeant.
[00:18:01:23] Donna: Yeah, that's true, I think I got some stripes. Yeah. A good team.
[00:18:07:24] James: So what did you learn doing that?
[00:18:10:09] Donna: Well, managing people is a bit of an art form, isn't it? And you never, you never really fully accomplished as a manager. I don't think it's, again, it's something that you're you're constantly learning. I learned that, the the importance of having the right people around you. You're only really successful because you've got you're surrounded by really good people.
And I learned a lot about the importance of having a diverse team in all ways, all forms of diversity.
[00:18:38:09] James: Well, so explain that. What was, what was.
[00:18:41:21] Donna: In terms of every, you know, everything. So, gender, ethnicity, age, psychological type, all of that. If you've particularly working in East London, I ended up working with very diverse teams. And I think you get the very best, of talent and ideas. If you've got a group of people who work together but come at things from very different angles and perspectives, and I think if you can combine all of those things, you definitely get to have better outcomes working together.
And I learned that and I also learned early on that creating a safe environment for people is massively important for them to be able to do well. So, you know, we worked in a target orientated environment, as I've already said. But the last thing that you want to do as a manager is create a sort of sense of fear about failure in that regard.
So it's about realizing that you're collectively aiming for for targets and outcomes, but doing so, doing so in such a way that people don't feel fearful of failure. And that's something that I've sort of tried to carry through every stage, really, of my career.
[00:19:48:15] James: How do you do that? That's a fine art, isn't it?
[00:19:50:23] Donna: Yeah it is, it's not particularly easy, but I think, first of all, choose people that you've got confident that you feel that you can place your confidence and trust in. And you take responsibility yourself when things don't go well and demonstrate to to your people that if things go wrong, you're going to be standing there next to them and help them improve and develop and do better next time.
And I think if you can do that, you get you build trust with people and ultimately, you get better results in the long term.
[00:20:25:08] James: So listening to you, you're sort of acquiring some knowledge and skills as you progress, but your passion for sort of helping people and working with people was the the core and the starting point. And then you're accumulating this knowledge from your jobs. So you became a manager and then your management roles became larger. That's it. And then you became operations director, which is that's taking accountability for the whole operation.
That's a big step up. I did that, told me through that. And how you felt about that. Yeah.
[00:20:55:16] Donna: That's quite a big mindset shift at that point. I would say there's two really big mindset shifts for me. My journey that was one and the next was actually stepping into NZ, which for us it's all good.
[00:21:05:10] James: We'll come to that next. So you move from manager, you're running a successful groups of people, but then you becoming operations, becoming a director I suppose. So you've gone from advisor to manager and now director.
[00:21:17:04] Donna: So that was an interesting move. So that was in 2014 at the point that I joined the board, I was the only woman on the board. And I was the youngest person on the board as well. And I was sort of mentally sort of grappling with the idea that you are responsible in quite a different way as a director on you.
So everything really that happens in the company in some way, you have oversight and responsibility for. So, you know, you've got your functional responsibility in terms of my case operations. But then there's the the whole organizational, from every perspective. And yeah, that's quite a big, a big change, I would say in terms of of how I thought about my job, what I would say is one of the things that helps you to progress in a company, I think, is being able to see the company as a whole organization and not just yourself in a department within it.
And I think that that really comes to to the fore when you step into a board role, because you've got those sort of two focuses, if you like.
[00:22:16:13] James: But how many people you was responsible for as operations director at that time?
[00:22:20:13] Donna: I think it was. It's grown considerably during that ten year period. So it I think at the lowest point we were at a team of about 500. And then at the when I was operations director at the peak, which we were still at now, it was about 2300.
[00:22:36:20] James: So the company's grown hugely up to you over your period as director. So then you said, you know, the next step or, you know, the big change was becoming managing director. Well, what's the big change from operations to managing director?
[00:22:51:05] Donna: Well, well, when you're on the board as the operations director, clearly you've, you know, you're managing a large section of the business and you've got a large responsibility in terms of the, you know, the performance of the business and you're contributing to the conversation around strategy. And so you're very much at the table, but as managing director essentially of owning that to a much greater extent.
So, working with a team of people across all different functions. So the finance director, business development, the people, teams, all of this then becomes your responsibility. And I think pulling that together and being able to, articulate a coherent strategy, I think is, is a much different response ability from the operations director job that I'd had before.
And, I knew that to be the case when I walked into the job and then very shortly after taking it on, was sort of weaved straight into the whole strategy process. So it gave me the opportunity to sort of get stuck straight into that.
[00:23:54:22] James: So strategy is really at the forefront of when you're managing director in a way that it wasn't perhaps before.
That's a new skill that it is to acquire.
[00:24:04:03] Donna: It is. And I think, you know, sometimes strategy feels a bit abstract, right? But for me it's about thinking further ahead, essentially. So, you know, as operations director, I'm thinking about business results in the more immediate short medium term. As managing director, I'm thinking about what we know, what we what we're doing in three, five years.
[00:24:25:04] James: So and that's good. I'm hoping you're thinking about that.
So that's of all I think. You know, that's what I'm thinking about as well.
[00:24:31:21] Donna: So that's that's quite a big shift. And you'd spend much, much more of your time in that, sort of space, if you like.
[00:24:41:19] James: And that takes imagination. It's a different skill again.
[00:24:47:13] Donna: But it's not, you know, you know, thank goodness you're not doing it all by. So there's lots of really talented people around. And the other point I'd like to make about that is you're looking externally a lot more. So you're, you know, I find myself needing to know what's going on, you know, politically, for example, much more about our customers strategy. Competitors, other stakeholders.
[00:25:11:15] James: So, yeah, employers. Other organizations, what they're doing. So on on that journey, your personal journey from an advisor to managing director, I imagine you had to compete for jobs. So you know how if if you're thinking of a young person in their 20s, how did you get noticed? How how do you make yourself the the best candidate in those situations? What should people be trying to take from your your journey that they can use on their own?
[00:25:43:12] Donna: Well, I think the first thing to do is to be really good at the job that you've got. First of all, you know, I aim to be the best. Those that mean best in a competitive way with others, only the best that you can be get, you know, get good results. I think the second thing is I'm good.
I choose my words carefully. Here, work for you, manager. It's really important to understand your manager's priorities. Help them to be successful because you know they've got aims and objectives. Obviously the business itself to be successful. So work for your manager and your manager can end up being your biggest ally, you know, if you can help them to achieve, understand the wider context, know about the company, know about what it is that the overall organization is trying to achieve.
Don't just think about your own, department or business unit. Try to understand more broadly and within that know which role you want your next job to be. That's what I was. This is mentioned to you earlier. I wasn't sort of it wasn't working backwards from M&A. I was thinking, you know, what's what's next for me. And even if that job is not available right now, get yourself ready for it, I think, okay.
Talk to people, build you network, understand what are the skills. The knowledge that you need and have a, have a plan, for that. But in terms of, getting yourself noticed, I think I noticed people who, who get things done that sounds a bit basic, but I noticed problem solvers. I notice people who like difficult things. Easy, rather than notice it.
[00:27:18:23] James: And they're actually quite rare. I mean, lots of people present problems. Not so many come with solutions.
[00:27:24:13] Donna: That's right. And, I think that can do, attitude and resourcefulness. And really aligning yourself. People, people stand out to me when they really align themselves with what the business is trying to achieve. And, you know, not everybody would agree with me, but I'm not necessarily looking for people who are hugely personally ambitious. I want people who are there because they want to make the company succeed.
That's what I've always wanted. I might be different in different companies, different leaders might want different things, but that's what I want. I want people that want to work as a team and make that, make the company the best that it can possibly be. And if I see that in people, then, you know, they can go on to build a nice journey, I think.
[00:28:07:12] James: Yeah, that's important. I think for the companies to try and create opportunities for people, you know, at Reed, we like to promote people from within whenever possible, and you're a good example of that. But, you know, the people need to be on the journey as well.
[00:28:20:23] Donna: So do. And do you achieve personal success by being on that journey? That's that's kind of the the point from my perspective.
[00:28:29:17] James: When do you feel, you know, when you're in a job that it's the right moment to move on? Maybe it's to move into a new role or move? How do you get how do you time that correctly? You know, move, move up or move out or in a career, you know, when.
[00:28:43:24] Donna: I'm not sure that is a straightforward answer to that. I'm, you know, I'm obviously someone who's built a career by staying in the same place. And I can honestly say that at any point that really felt, perhaps I'm not enjoying this role as much as I could do, or I'm not sure if I can really see where the next opportunity is coming from.
Something has opened up and happened and caused me to say, you know, it's it's it's happened consistently throughout my time. And I think that's credit to the company for the fact that those opportunities have been created and have come up. But, you know, it's equally possible, isn't it, to experience that feeling that I did and and decide to move on and go somewhere else?
I would say clearly, I would advocate staying if you if you're confident that even in a good company, there are risks to moving. Of course, you know, you might not choose well, but it's an internal thing. Only, you know, you as an individual can know if you're at the point where you perhaps, you know, not feeling as motivated every day as you need to be.
And I think is really important to enjoy what you're doing on a daily basis. You know, that's.
[00:29:51:01] James: So do I if we now sort of step out of the individual who wants to progress. Let's head and think about managers who want to spot talent. Yeah. And sort of, you know, if you want to bring people on in your organization and look for people, you've sort of half answered this. But yeah, I mean, you're obviously looking for a can do approach, but what other advice would you give to managers in terms of I mean, do you believe in succession plans?
Do you believe in, you know, some flagging people as fast track these sort of things that some companies do? Or do you think it's a different approach?
[00:30:29:05] Donna: Yes, I think it can help be helpful. It's that's quite difficult to do because people's talent emerges at different times. So you I think you just need to make sure you're flexible. But there will always inevitably be people that quite clearly have potential. And you want to, create opportunity for them quite, quite obviously. And I think.
[00:30:51:23] James: You know, that's hard to spot in a company 2300 people. Is that. Yeah. And they're all over the place. Yeah, I no, I mean it gets harder I find as a business gets bigger, you know, when you're starting out as an entrepreneur and you've got ten people in a room and you know, every one person there you can sort of see, but how do you do it as a as it gets bigger, how does that work?
[00:31:10:15] Donna: Well, I think you do need to make sure that you're talking to people at all levels of your management team at all levels about the importance of that. You need to create opportunity, I suppose, to raise create opportunities for people to get involved in things beyond their jobs. So projects, recruitment opportunities, things that people can volunteer for or be nominated for that that gets them sort of the exposure and they can be noticed.
The other thing I think as a leader is that you just need to create as many opportunities as you can, so interact with your people.
[00:31:42:06] James: So what sort of opportunities do you think you.
[00:31:44:00]: Donna: So you might want to? We're not only just going and seeing what they're doing and talking to them, but we for example, run, focus groups and we regularly create opportunities for us as a, as a team of directors to engage with people in the organization, to ask their ideas, their feedback.
[00:32:00:21] James: How does the focus group work?
[00:32:02:08] Donna: So, for example, in January, the directors all went on, visits across the whole country brought together groups of people to ask them questions to inform our strategy. So we would ask them things around how can we accelerate performance? What can we do to make this a better place to work, you know, a range of different questions and send them to people in advance and then have a conversation, engage people.
And from that you can you can start to pick out where you meet. People are very curious and, clearly have put thought into things and come up with good ideas.
[00:32:37:06] James: So that has a double benefit in the sense that you're spotting people who are coming forward and suggesting things and the ideas and then showing potential, but you're also acquiring lots of new ideas for the strategy.
[00:32:50:11] Donna: Well, absolutely.
[00:32:51:17] James: So sort of getting out there is a good thing for other businesses to really build into their calendar.
[00:32:58:16] Donna: Well look. We can't possibly know the right way forward on every point from the boardroom. It's absurd to think that, in a way, I think.
[00:33:07:18] James: You've developed, you know, since your time in operations and now as managing director, a very active culture of continuous improvement. Yes.
[00:33:16:05] Donna: Absolutely.
[00:33:17:14] James: And that is inform the strategy. And that also helps surface future leaders. You would say. So what should someone who's thinking about this, how would you start on that continuous improvement track? If that's something you want to do?
[00:33:32:20] Donna: For me, continuous improvement starts with an attitude, with a mindset. I mean, right at the very beginning, because you can't continuously improve if you can't bear the thought of ever being wrong.
You know, that's the that's an important starting point. you'd be surprised how many people find it hard to get past that point, that place, you know, if you want to do well, you have to look in the mirror and say, oh, I didn't do that perfectly well this time. Next time it's going to be better. And then you take you apply that principle to the to the whole organization, which is we can make the service better.
You know, we can yeah, get better results.
[00:34:09:08] James: And I was lucky enough years and years ago to go to Harvard Business School. And on the last day, after spending a lot of money and a lot of effort and a lot of time on this course for the MBA, finance professor said to us, 50% of what you've learned here will be wrong, and we don't know what 50% it is.
Right? And in a way, that was the best lesson because it makes you continuously curious as you go out into the world thinking, well, I think this is right, but am I wrong? And I think that's so important that, you know, good ideas come from everywhere and everyone.
And what you're doing today might not be the right thing and it might be wrong, and you can continuously improve it. And I think you've found that for your own work. Yes. The case.
[00:34:52:00] Donna: Yeah. Well, I found it through personal experience to you as an individual. You know, you can't get better at something unless you really identify with.
[00:34:59:24] James: Why is that a blockage for so many people? Do you think? So maybe it's the, the confidence thing.
[00:35:07:21] Donna: Confidence is one side of it. I think people might be. There's a cultural point. I think, you know, you have to create a culture where it's okay to be wrong. People don't feel frightened to say, well, love didn't not dance terribly well. And we can say, okay, all right.
[00:35:23:16] James: Because, you know, looking around you in business and all sorts of walks of life, things, run as well as they could be. I mean, it should be, you know, obvious that things are going wrong in all sorts of places.
[00:35:33:13] Donna: Yeah. I mean, I want to improve and I focus on the arts and then, you know, we you can always leave the drains afterwards and things will happen there. But you know, focus on the solution, get the thing done, and then we can, then, you know, worry about what caused problems later. I think it's, it's back to that can do attitude.
[00:35:52:07] James: Do you think that sometimes what happens is people are fixated on what caused this or who was at fault, rather than, it's going to fix the move on?
[00:35:58:20] Donna: Yes, I think that is the case. Yeah. And I think that comes from a that's a cultural problem in the sense that people are worried about, the consequences for them as an individual. Yes. Whereas what's really important is the consequences for the overall for the company getting things right and making sure,
[00:36:15:15] James: For the customer and for the people experiencing the service, we want to go right for them because things I mean, I think it's it's totally human. Is it? We all know that things go wrong.
[00:36:25:20] Donna: Absolutely.
[00:36:26:15] James: And that's how people respond to that. That's so important in my experience.
[00:36:31:23] Donna: Yes. And that, you know, that ultimately helps you to be more successful more quickly, you know. So I read the book and it said, it's called Being Wrong by Karen Schultz. I really liked it was excellent. And she said, the great thing about acknowledging when you're wrong is that you can more quickly start being right.
I like this piece of advice. Yeah. You know. Just accept it, get on with it. And, and I don't wouldn't ever want for someone to be worried about coming to me, for example, and saying, you've made a mistake.
[00:37:01:21] James: That's something I've observed about you over the years, is you actually read a lot, and you'll you'll be self-taught in that sense. So your curiosity about how to run things and how to run a company and be in business and, and you read a lot of things beyond business and know so you I think I'm hearing that you would be recommending others to do the same.
[00:37:22:12] Donna: Yeah, absolutely. You know, that curiosity point that we spoke about earlier, there is so much material available so readily. You know, it's I mean, I just don't have time to read all of the things I want to read, frankly. Yes. Which disappoints me. But.
[00:37:39:05] James: You know, hopefully got many years ahead of you.
[00:37:41:21] Donna: It's not enough hours in the day.
[00:37:43:08] James: I Know, I know how that feels, but, you know, and so it's important to get good advice about what to read or recommendations and.
[00:37:49:00] Donna: But that curiosity, I, you know, I love it when people come to me and say, oh, I've had this idea about this. And that's, you know, nine times out of ten, we'll talk it through and say, oh, you know, perhaps that's not quite going to work, but the one time out of ten that we can make it work, it can be quite transformational.
And, I really like people who have ideas in that way. Normally it's because of foraging around, reading, looking at things, thinking about what other businesses are doing, listening to people on podcasts, for example. And I really like that.
[00:38:21:10] James: Where my experience ideas come from all over the place and something you might have, someone might be saying something on a podcast. You think that's interesting? I wonder if I can apply that where I work, and then you connect it with another idea. And so having a sort of continual ferment of ideas is important. I mean, we'd like to say, you know, a family, we should have a new idea every day.
So that's the sort of mantra of ours. And this will help us. It's exposed to more things.
[00:38:46:03] Donna: It's quite difficult to have a good idea of every time. And so.
[00:38:49:05] James: We don't say good one, just I have no idea.
We don't know. And sometimes you don't know whether an idea is a good one. For many, many years.
You know, so you have to give them time sometimes. And it might be just something I need to go for lunch. I mean, it doesn't have to be a groundbreaking idea. So you mentioned earlier when you became the operations director on a that you were the only woman on the board and the youngest person on the board.
That doesn't reflect well on me. Back in 2014, I believe I was the chairman of the board back then, and we should have had a more diverse board, and presets become more.
You have some views, I know, on women in leadership and leadership, but I'd like you to share because I think they're interesting.
[00:39:33:11] Donna: They were women on the group board at that point. James, I was talking about the Board of Reed in Partnership.
[00:39:37:02] James: I know you were nobody on the board. You joined me, were the only woman. And, you know, we we seek to be, inclusive, obviously. And that's very important to us. And, and we have objectives around women in leadership, management, which we've made good progress on over that decade. But there's always we can always do better in the spirit of what we were saying earlier, and we want to do better.
But you're an exemplar, so talk me through your thoughts on this.
[00:40:02:11] Donna: Well, look, the first thing that I want to say, I think it's a really important caveat to make when you get into conversations about this. I've, I've got very, very good relationships with lots of men at work and outside of work. And anything that I'm about to say is not intended to offend any single individual man. But I think we do have to.
[00:40:20:24] James: Don't hold back. Don't know either. I think you say what you are experience.
[00:40:24:22] Donna: You have to sometimes sort of confront these things. Now, you know, women in leadership, obviously women face some structural, let's say sort of logistic even challenges. So, women who choose to have a family and find it difficult, obviously in salary and progression terms, to recover from a break. Often women are this more likely to be than men, part time workers.
And that can affect the progression at work. And so there definitely are these sort of structural problems that thankfully businesses are waking up to and are seeking to address, which I think is fantastic. But let's be really honest, the problem isn't a structural one. The problem is a historic one relating to, you know, over centuries and centuries, how people have felt about women.
And it's that bias against women that holds women back, principally in the workplace, because there are stereotypes about women and whether or not women should be in leadership roles or what they, you know, what they shouldn't, shouldn't be doing that more or less consciously. People still carry around in their minds when they're making hiring decisions or pricing decisions.
And I think that's when we talk about the, you know, women in leadership, it's that that we need to think about. I have to say, my experience at Reed has been absolutely brilliant. You know, I've not I don't feel like I've ever been insecure within, you know, working for the company where I've felt that I've been treated in a sexist way.
There have been things that have happened when I've been dealing with clients or, you know, moments at work where I felt perhaps some unconscious bias has crept in. But I don't feel like there's ever been a, you know, actual barriers to me. But there are in plenty of of companies in different sectors. If you think about women in, you know, science and technology, for example, it's, you know, really quite a different experience, perhaps from the one that I've had.
And I think all I would say is I think it's really important to recognize that whilst we've made massive improvements in this, the problem hasn't gone away. And I don't I'm not somebody who goes around talking about this very often. You've probably noticed.
[00:42:28:14] James: I have noticed, but that's why I wanted to hear why I wanted to hear what you thought.
[00:42:32:05] Donna: But I think it is when I talk to a lot of men, or if I do, men are surprised about this. And that is, frankly, male privilege, because men don't.
[00:42:45:06] James: Haven't had the experience.
[00:42:46:18] Donna: Yeah. And so I think it's really important when women want to progress and move into leadership roles, that they recognize that they will come up against certain behaviors, and they have a decision to make about whether to ignore it or to choose to educate. But one thing I would say is don't ever let it put you off. So you know, however you choose to react, just don't let it put you off.
Don't ever let it make you feel that you shouldn't be in the room because it's that self selection. I think that is that silence self.
[00:43:21:10] James: And you see that? I mean, do you see that yourself, women in our business or might be deselecting that.
[00:43:31:05] Donna: I'm not sure if women are even necessarily completely conscious when that they do that. I think it just manifests itself as like a, sort of imposter syndrome. You know, I shouldn't be here. I shouldn't be in this room or in this group. And I think it's just around it just requires a little bit of determination. I mean, it's quite unfortunately common.
If you turn up a meeting with a male colleague, the people that you meet might assume that that person is more senior than you because he's not.
[00:44:03:04] James: Okay. So this happens to you now?
[00:44:04:11] Donna: Oh, yeah.
[00:44:04:11] James: So you go and visit, someone has a company and you're with a man and they. Say, oh yeah, that it less likely. So I think he's mostly in the you actually it's the other way around.
Yeah. And so you've got a choice to make in the instance. My choice is always to just explain you actually this is the hierarchy.
[00:44:04:15] James: That guy works for me.
[00:44:21:16] Donna: Yeah. And it's awkward, isn't it.
[00:44:21:16] James: The person next to you is my coach.
[00:44:21:16] Donna: Or in fact, I've been out to an external meeting with the previous manager of mine. And, you know, on more than one occasion, people would assume that I was his assistant. You know, it's, which is, you know, fine. But I don't see what.
[00:44:45:23] James: He's assumption that. Yeah, well, well, that's the old adage is that you makes an ass out of you and me. I mean, it's sort of exactly that in these cases. Yeah. So this is really embedded is what you're saying it is. And the fact that we all need to be more aware of it is clearly your message. We'll all do a better job if we are more aware of it.
[00:45:04:19] Donna: That's it. And, you know, it's more or less subtle. And probably not deliberate, ingrained from centuries of this stereotyping of what women, you know, ought to be. And, you know, I'm, I've reiterate, I've had a really good experience at read.
[00:45:21:12] James: There's an experience that I've observed where in a meeting and board meeting, a woman suggests something comes up with an idea and sort of humbly acknowledged. And then one of the men sitting around the table somewhat later says something extremely similar. And I'm very interesting.
You've seen that? I've seen it. So what is that about? And and how can what's should you say? Actually, I just said that it's not that. It's that the right response. I think that is the wrong.
And I think a chair of a meeting should say, yeah, I actually don't. I said like ten minutes ago. Yeah. So I think anyone running a meeting should be super.
[00:45:56:01] Donna :I think so, yeah. They should making sure that every, voice is heard. And this goes right back to that diversity conversation that we were having about making sure that you've got that diversity of input, and a good chair or a good manager leader who will pull that together to help we get to the to the right outcome.
You know, being spoken over is the other thing.
[00:46:15:04] James: Yeah. There's an old I think it's a Native American saying that. I remember hearing years ago, I was like a hollow gourd makes the loudest sound. So so, you know, you don't want to necessarily give the floor to the loudest person. You suddenly don't actually want to make sure every voice.
[00:46:31:06] Donna: That's right, it's heard. I think that is the answer, isn't it, that from a diversity perspective, I've you know, I've struggled quite literally since I have got quite a quiet voice and have to find myself projecting quite a lot, which can be a little bit exhausting. So it's always quite refreshing when you're in a meeting and you know that the person leading the group is always wanting to hear from you.
[00:46:55:17] James: Sometimes I think my wife makes it as a teacher, and she's taught in some pretty rough around schools, and she's only five foot three. And I said, how do you get control of the class? And she said, sometimes I go out the front of the room and I just stand there. I didn't say anything, and I wait. And after sometimes 3 or 4 minutes, they all go quiet because they become curious.
So what are you going to do? What are you going to say? I know this is a very good technique, and I think silence sometimes is extremely powerful to, you know, if you're if you're getting all seeking attention. But obviously in the context of a group, you need to make sure everyone has a voice. And I think we all have a duty to listen as well.
[00:47:42:08] Donna: Oh, I agree, and I the to to the point about, you know, the person speaking the loudest. I think if you've got good ideas, and you're prepared to take your opportunities to state them, I don't think do these things.
[00:47:58:15] James: So don't be your messages. Don't be discouraged if you're not loud and sort of extrovert. You still have an important contribution.
[00:48:05:23] Donna: Yes. Yeah. And don't try to be what you're not. You know, I'm not a big, loud extrovert. And if I tried to be one, it would be ridiculous, frankly.
So, you know. I just I really would have advocated being authentic. You know, the person that I am at work is the same person that's talking to you now. And I think it's really important to me that that people see authenticity. I think better leaders are fantastic. And so I don't try and mold myself into anyone else.
[00:48:34:04] James You are true to yourself. And what I've observed, you know, that passion you had when you started all those years ago for working with people and helping people regress is is every bit as bright and powerful, if not more so now? I mean, you've really carried that forward. Is that your prime motivation?
[00:48:51:00] Donna: Yes. Yeah it is. It just gets grown. You know, it was down to individuals. You know, helping individuals in that first instance. Then it became teams. And you know, now it's become helping the organization to succeed. And the impact that we have, you know, across all of our services and all the people that we think we.
[00:49:09:10] James: So Donna, if we think about individuals who are sort of immersed in a job and they they want to progress, they're thinking about their next move, how might they prepare themselves most effectively? You know, with the six months, three years, five years. So the time frames in mind, because these are often more people are asked and appraisals and things.
Yeah. So we're in a job interview. You might be asked, you know, where do you see yourself in five years time?
[00:49:35:19] Donna: Okay. I think five years is quite long. Reflecting on this just now, you know, it's a bit it's a bit of a historical question, isn't it? Not in the context of a job interview. I mean, in a job appraisal. Five years. It was quite long in modern business. So perhaps we, you know, people should be thinking about a shorter time frame that six months, perhaps three years.
I think people, can benefit from recognizing that, progression is not all about your next promotion. You can progress. And in the job that you've got and you can get yourself ready for that next promotion. So I advocate treating yourself as a project. So identify the skills and experiences that you think you want to obtain in order to progress, in order to get yourself closer to that next job when it comes along.
And you can find various ways of of gaining those skills, you can shadow people, you can look for secondment opportunities. You can join projects that sit alongside your current job. You know, our business certainly, but I imagine that most businesses provide those sorts of opportunities. So if you know what it is that you want to do, you can take those things off on your plan.
And then when the next role comes along, you can you can be ready for it. It's not always possible in a company to know exactly what or where your next move is going to be. But making sure that you're continuously developing and acquiring skills along the way is important, I think.
[00:51:00:06] James: Yeah, where preparation meets opportunity, that's what people like, isn't it? Oh, so that's sort of. But that's what you're saying. And you can't know because business is changing so fast. So position yourself as someone who's improving and adaptable.
[00:51:15:10] Donna: Well, I wasn't expecting to be managing director, you know, just over a year ago, so but I wanted to be ready at the point that the opportunity came along some.
[00:51:24:16] James: And you were you were the strongest candidate.
[00:51:27:06] Donna: So you know that that's that's the it's from it's sort of lived experience for me really making sure that you're thinking about that and getting yourself ready for when that moment happens, even if it's unexpected.
[00:51:38:09] James: So. Well, that's very useful advice. Now, you were talking earlier about people who sort of don't get anything wrong and sort of know it all. I mean, the other side of that coin is someone who, you know, apparently doesn't know anything, and they always asking questions and doesn't seem to be able to sort of settle upon the fact that they've got to go out and do something.
Have you seen that? Have you come across.
[00:52:02:11] Donna: That people who sort of seek reassurance quite a lot through asking questions to establish every detail? Yes. I think once once you've spotted that, I think if you recognize that it comes from a position of anxiety or, you know, perhaps self-confidence, self-doubt, then I think that's the conversation to have, rather than answering every specific question and saying, you know, I'm trusting you to do this.
And if you come up with the wrong answer, that's that's fine. We can talk about it. But encouraging people to go and find the answers for themselves in certain ways.
[00:52:32:21] James: That's very interesting. So you've found that to be the way to deal with that. Otherwise you're just endlessly answering questions.
[00:52:39:10] Donna: Oh, questions that I might not be able to answer because actually, yeah, I'm asking that person again.
[00:52:43:22] James: I'm not going to find out what the answer is.
[00:52:46:12] Donna: Yeah, precisely. But I think if you recognize it as being a, a a sort of fundamentally a self-confidence or an anxiety related.
[00:52:56:16] James: So in a way, both those problems, to do with confidence, anxiety, I know it all because I don't want to show that I'm weak. Yeah. Or I don't know anything. I don't know things. I've got to ask lots of questions and and understanding of realizing that is very helpful for managers because we're all on a journey. We can't possibly know all the answers or we know something. And and I suppose as a decision maker, you you have to make decisions all the time. Don't you? With imperfect knowledge with.
Yes. You know, some stuff, but you don't know everything you'd like to know. And that's something you learn over time as a leader, isn't it?
[00:53:31:11] Donna: Absolutely it is. And I've, you know, back again to what we were talking about earlier on the culture of continuous improvement. We all know that we're not, past when we're feeling anxious in either direction in that you've just described, you were in a situation of imperfect knowledge where we've got to make a decision and there are consequences.
But if you are in an environment where you don't feel that there are going to be dreadful personal ramifications if you making a mistake, if you've got that confidence, people are backing you, you much for you to make a good decision, I think. But I think that cultural point is really important. But, you know, I think self-confidence is such a massive enabler for people, you know, when when you're not feeling confident, everything about your performance gets worse.
So, you know. It just does. And so you need confidence.
[00:54:20:19] James: In every walk of life.
[00:54:21:17] Donna: Absolutely. And so trying to create an environment, you know, I've seen people in our organization progress and do things that they didn't believe that they could do. And the massive confidence boost that they get from that is a joy to say, really.
[00:54:35:16] James: But you also see it with our participants when they progress into a job after being unemployed for a long time.
[00:54:40:10] Donna: Absolutely.
[00:54:41:05] James: And that's what's so rewarding about it.
[00:54:43:11] Donna: It's really motivating to see people do well. I think I really enjoy that.
[00:54:48:06] James: So do I
So, Donna, I'm going to ask you two questions that I ask all of our guests. And the first question is what gets you up on a Monday morning?
[00:55:03:20] Donna: You know, I don't have any problems getting out of bed on a Monday morning. I don't experience any kind of reluctance to get up and do my job. I love I love what I do, I love my job. I love the fact that I get the opportunity to work with a great team of people, and I get a lot of autonomy, and I can make decisions.
And I love the fact that the work we do is meaningful and has impact. You know, if you were asking the question literally, I think, yeah, I'd like I said earlier, I think it's so important to each of you love. And I, I really do love my love for anyone that knows me personally. Well, I would say that that's really obvious.
[00:55:43:06] James: That's good. So you're loving Mondays? That's good.
Yeah. I was going to say Mondays are working for you. I can say I am good. It ain't easy to be cheesy. As I say, Donna loves Mondays. That's good, that's good. I'm pleased to hear it. So the second question I'm gonna ask you is, one of the questions from my interview that one of the fateful 15. You'd have been asked it before.
Where do you see yourself in five years time?
[00:56:06:17] Donna: Well, I've been doing this job for a year, nearly, believe it or not, which is quite astonishing. Years go and pass very quickly. So if I imagine, you know, another five years like that, it's going to come around quite quick. First of all, I would if it means I'm still in the current job that I'm doing, I'll be very happy.
But I would like to think that the company would be even bigger and better by then. I'd like to see, you know, I'd like to be managing director of Reading Partnership, but in a completely different size and shape. Running, you know, more services and more divisions to more and more people across the country. I would be very motivated by the outcome.
I mean, I certainly still see myself in a senior role in business, and I'm not planning within the next five years to go sit on a mountain in Peru. But I might do that at some point in the future.
[00:56:57:10] James: Peru is a beautiful place. Yeah. Okay, Donna, thank you very much.
Thank you to Donna for joining me on All About Business. If you'd like to find out more about Donna, you can follow her on LinkedIn. I'm your host, James Reid, chairman and CEO of Reid, a family run recruitment and philanthropy company. If you'd like to find out more about careers at Reid, check out our current job opportunities on our website.
All links are in the show notes. See you next time.
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